{"contentType":"Editorial","sourceUrl":"https://www.reddit.com/r/FighterJets/comments/1rpt3el/tejas_pastpresent_and_future/","slug":"reddit-adb7ab","apex":{"children":[{"label":"Missed Market Opportunity","children":[{"label":"Perfect Light Fighter Potential","text":"The Tejas would have been a perfect light fighter if it entered service around 2005.","type":"SUP","parentId":"n2","id":"n3","children":[{"children":[],"text":"It could have easily captured the market segment occupied by F/A-50, M-346, and older F-16s.","type":"JUST","id":"n4","parentId":"n3","label":"Market Capture Potential"},{"label":"Replacement for Older Jets","text":"It would have been perfect for countries seeking to replace older Mirages and F-5s.","type":"JUST","id":"n5","parentId":"n3","children":[]}]},{"label":"Earlier Service Potential","parentId":"n2","id":"n6","text":"The Tejas would have been a perfect light fighter if it entered service in 2001.","type":"SUP","children":[]},{"children":[],"text":"The plane became outdated before its incorporation into the air force because of massive delays.","type":"INSG","parentId":"n2","id":"n7","label":"Outdated Before Incorporation"},{"label":"JF-17 Iterative Production Model","children":[],"text":"Iterative production, like the JF-17, could have matured Tejas into a better platform through phased orders.","type":"INSG","id":"n8","parentId":"n2"}],"id":"n2","parentId":"n1","type":"SECT","text":"Many commenters believe the Tejas missed a significant market opportunity due to its delayed entry into service."},{"label":"Developmental Challenges and Delays","text":"The Tejas program has been severely hampered by various delays, changing requirements, and procurement issues.","type":"SECT","parentId":"n1","id":"n9","children":[{"children":[{"label":"HAL Schedule Issues","id":"n11","parentId":"n10","text":"Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) struggles to keep to a schedule.","type":"JUST","children":[]},{"label":"Integration Issues","id":"n12","parentId":"n10","type":"JUST","text":"The program faced engine and radar integration issues.","children":[]},{"type":"JUST","text":"The Indian Air Force (IAF) constantly changed its requirements.","id":"n13","parentId":"n10","children":[],"label":"Changing IAF Requirements"}],"type":"OPP","text":"HAL's inability to keep to schedule, integration issues, and constantly changing IAF requirements hindered the Tejas program.","id":"n10","parentId":"n9","label":"HAL's Schedule and Requirements"},{"children":[{"parentId":"n14","id":"n15","text":"The Tejas was on paper in the 1980s.","type":"DAT-N","children":[],"label":"Program Concept 1980s"},{"id":"n16","parentId":"n14","type":"DAT-N","text":"First meaningful funding was given in the 1990s.","children":[],"label":"First Funding 1990s"},{"children":[],"text":"The first flight occurred in 2001, despite crippling sanctions post-1998 nuclear testing.","type":"DAT-N","id":"n17","parentId":"n14","label":"First Flight 2001"}],"text":"The Tejas program started in the 1970s, received meaningful funding in the 1990s, and had its first flight in 2001.","type":"DAT-N","parentId":"n9","id":"n14","label":"Tejas Program Start and First Flight"},{"label":"Delayed Induction and Mk1A Issues","children":[{"children":[],"type":"DAT-N","text":"Induction happened in 2016, 15 years after the first flight, with severe capability waivers.","parentId":"n18","id":"n19","label":"Induction Timeline"},{"label":"Mk1A Delivery Delay","children":[],"id":"n20","parentId":"n18","type":"DAT-N","text":"The 'combat capable' Mk1A is still not delivered by March 2026."},{"children":[],"id":"n21","parentId":"n18","type":"JUST","text":"Mk1A delivery is due to incomplete weapons and systems integration, not engine delays.","label":"Mk1A Delay Reason"},{"label":"Mk2 Prototype Status","text":"The Mk2 static full-scale prototype is not yet visible for an 'elephant walk' demonstration.","type":"DAT-N","parentId":"n18","id":"n22","children":[]}],"text":"The long timeline from first flight to induction and issues with the Mk1A version represent a travesty.","type":"OPP","parentId":"n9","id":"n18"},{"children":[],"type":"OPP","text":"The article focuses solely on technical aspects, while the real problems with Tejas are non-technical, like delays.","parentId":"n9","id":"n23","label":"Article Focus Critique"},{"children":[{"text":"This would have prevented engine delivery bottlenecks for Mk1A production or allowed an earlier switch to F414 engines.","type":"JUST","id":"n25","parentId":"n24","children":[],"label":"Avoid Engine Bottleneck"}],"parentId":"n9","id":"n24","type":"DCSN","text":"The IAF should have ordered more aircraft to keep the F404 production line running.","label":"IAF Order for F404 Production"},{"label":"F404 Production Line Shutdown","children":[],"id":"n26","parentId":"n9","type":"DAT-N","text":"The F404 production line shut down in 2016."},{"text":"The Mk1A idea was mooted around 2015, got production funding approval in 2021, and the Mk1 IOC squadron was stood up in 2016.","type":"DAT-N","parentId":"n9","id":"n27","children":[{"label":"Mk1 FOC Squadron 2020","children":[],"type":"DAT-N","text":"The Tejas Mk1 FOC squadron was stood up in 2020.","parentId":"n27","id":"n28"}],"label":"Mk1A Funding and Squadron Status"},{"label":"Recommendation for More Mk1 Orders","id":"n29","parentId":"n9","type":"DCSN","text":"IAF should have ordered 40 more Mk1s.","children":[{"id":"n30","parentId":"n29","type":"JUST","text":"The F404 line shut down because only 38 Mk1s were produced.","children":[],"label":"F404 Line Shutdown Due to Few Orders"}]},{"children":[{"children":[],"parentId":"n31","id":"n32","text":"Tejas is not the only GE F404 user, with legacy F-18 Hornet, F-117, and F-20 Tigershark also using it.","type":"DAT-N","label":"Other F404 Users"},{"children":[],"id":"n33","parentId":"n31","text":"FA-50/T-50 had local license production in South Korea.","type":"DAT-N","label":"FA-50/T-50 Local Production"},{"children":[],"type":"DAT-N","text":"Mk1A was not funding approved, so HAL could not order more engines for it.","parentId":"n31","id":"n34","label":"Mk1A Funding Status"},{"label":"Mk1A License Production Proposal","children":[],"id":"n35","parentId":"n31","text":"Mk1A had a quotation/proposal to license produce GE F404 in 2020, but it was cut for cost.","type":"DAT-N"}],"text":"India had orders for about 75 F404 engines, including prototypes and spares, before the Mk1A order.","type":"NTRL","id":"n31","parentId":"n9","label":"F404 Engine Users and Orders"},{"label":"Indian Procurement Bureaucracy","children":[],"id":"n36","parentId":"n9","type":"INSG","text":"Indian defense procurement lacks agility and foresight for long-term funding decisions."},{"children":[],"id":"n37","parentId":"n9","type":"EVI-S","text":"Late Manohar Parrikar is credited for reviving the Tejas and inducting it into service.","label":"Manohar Parrikar's Role"}]},{"label":"Technical Capabilities and Assessments","children":[{"children":[{"label":"Role as Cheap Light Fighter","children":[],"parentId":"n39","id":"n40","text":"It is viewed as a cheap light fighter affordable by less rich countries.","type":"JUST"}],"type":"OPP","text":"The claim of Tejas being an 'incredible fighter' is questioned, calling it an Indian equivalent of the FC-1/JF-17.","id":"n39","parentId":"n38","label":"Questioning 'Incredible Fighter' Claim"},{"text":"India being 'stuck' with Tejas 25 years after its first flight is seen as baffling and embarrassing.","type":"OPP","id":"n41","parentId":"n38","children":[{"parentId":"n41","id":"n42","type":"EVI-O","text":"China has advanced two generations ahead of the FC-1 in the same period.","children":[],"label":"China's Fighter Development Progress"}],"label":"India's Persistent Tejas Reliance"},{"text":"The Tejas platform is quite good, with engine delivery delays being the main issue for orders.","type":"SUP","id":"n43","parentId":"n38","children":[{"text":"The Indian Air Force has already ordered 180 more Tejas platforms.","type":"DAT-S","parentId":"n43","id":"n44","children":[],"label":"IAF Orders for Tejas"},{"children":[],"parentId":"n43","id":"n45","text":"The last GE engine was delivered in January, with no further deliveries from GE since.","type":"DAT-S","label":"Engine Delivery Update"}],"label":"Good Platform Despite Numbers"},{"text":"A Tejas Mk1A with Uttam radar, SRK, Astra Mk-2ER, and BrahMos-NG could be an excellent combination.","type":"SUP","parentId":"n38","id":"n46","children":[{"label":"Comparison to JF-17 Block 3","type":"JUST","text":"This configuration would be better than the JF-17 Block 3.","parentId":"n46","id":"n47","children":[]}],"label":"Tejas Mk1A Potential Configuration"},{"label":"Integration Challenges for Tejas Mk1A","children":[{"label":"Israeli Radar Use","children":[],"text":"Early Tejas Mk1A jets still use Israeli radar because Uttam was not ready.","type":"DAT-O","parentId":"n48","id":"n49"}],"text":"Most proposed systems like Uttam, Astra Mk-2, and BrahMos-NG are not yet operational together on Tejas Mk1A.","type":"EVI-O","parentId":"n38","id":"n48"},{"label":"Unfair Comparison with JF-17 Block 3","children":[{"label":"JF-17 Block 3 Current Capabilities","type":"DAT-O","text":"JF-17 Block 3 already fields AESA radar and PL-15 class BVR missile capability.","id":"n51","parentId":"n50","children":[]}],"type":"OPP","text":"Comparing Tejas's future configuration to the already fielded JF-17 Block 3 is unfair.","parentId":"n38","id":"n50"},{"label":"Tejas vs JF-17 Technical Features","table":{"cols":["Feature","Tejas","JF-17 Block 3"],"rows":[{"cells":["Liquid cooled","Air cooled"],"label":"AESA Radar Cooling"},{"label":"Engine Type","cells":["GE-F404 (Western)","RD-93 (Russian, derived from RD-33)"]},{"cells":["—","Known to have less operational life and electric generation capacity"],"label":"Engine Life/Capacity"}]},"id":"n52","parentId":"n38","type":"CMPR","text":"The Tejas and JF-17 Block 3 have different technical specifications for key systems.","children":[]},{"type":"DAT-S","text":"Astra Mk-2 is already in Limited Series Production (LSP).","id":"n53","parentId":"n38","children":[],"label":"Astra Mk-2 Production Status"},{"parentId":"n38","id":"n54","text":"Technically, Tejas has no major issues and is an extremely modern platform.","type":"SUP","children":[{"label":"Tejas Modern Features","children":[],"text":"It features a quad-axis fly-by-wire system, liquid-cooled AESA radar, and a carbon composites body.","type":"DAT-S","parentId":"n54","id":"n55"},{"label":"Tejas Low RCS","text":"Tejas has a low Radar Cross-Section (RCS) even with a full weapon loadout.","type":"DAT-S","id":"n56","parentId":"n54","children":[]}],"label":"Tejas Technical Modernity"},{"children":[{"label":"Higher Costs than JF-17 Block 3","text":"Tejas has higher operational and acquisition costs than JF-17 Block 3.","type":"JUST","id":"n58","parentId":"n57","children":[]}],"text":"While Tejas is modern on paper, modernity alone does not ensure success, as delays and costs are significant.","type":"OPP","id":"n57","parentId":"n38","label":"Pragmatic View on Modernity"},{"children":[],"text":"Tejas has a high availability rate of 75%.","type":"DAT-S","parentId":"n38","id":"n59","label":"Tejas Availability Rate"},{"text":"All subsystems are properly integrated, and the air force will evaluate it in April for induction.","type":"DAT-S","parentId":"n38","id":"n60","children":[],"label":"Mk1A Evaluation by Airforce"},{"table":{"cols":["Aircraft","Cost per aircraft"],"rows":[{"label":"Tejas","cells":["40 million dollars"]},{"label":"JF-17 Block 3","cells":["25 million dollars"]}]},"label":"Tejas vs JF-17 Cost","id":"n61","parentId":"n38","text":"Tejas is significantly more expensive per aircraft than JF-17 Block 3.","type":"CMPR","children":[]}],"type":"SECT","text":"The Tejas possesses modern technical features but faces challenges in integration and overall perception.","parentId":"n1","id":"n38"},{"children":[{"table":{"cols":["Program","Primary Goal"],"rows":[{"label":"Tejas","cells":["Multi-role jet replacing Mig-21s and acting as a training platform; maturing industrial capacity."]},{"label":"JF-17","cells":["Low-cost, modern fighter, integrating Chinese avionics, due to India's Su-30MKI procurements."]}]},"label":"Tejas vs JF-17 Program Goals","children":[],"text":"The Tejas and JF-17 programs had distinct objectives based on their respective nations' needs.","type":"CMPR","parentId":"n62","id":"n63"},{"label":"Indigenous Development Benefits","id":"n64","parentId":"n62","type":"INSG","text":"Developing many technologies from scratch for Tejas will benefit future Indian projects.","children":[]}],"type":"SECT","text":"Tejas and JF-17 programs had fundamentally different goals and development strategies.","id":"n62","parentId":"n1","label":"Program Goals and Strategic Differences"},{"children":[{"label":"Judging Performance Pre-Combat","text":"Judging an aircraft's capabilities before active conflict performance is seen as premature.","type":"OPP","id":"n66","parentId":"n65","children":[]},{"label":"Pre-Combat Performance Assessment","children":[],"text":"It is possible to judge an aircraft's capabilities before discussing its combat performance.","type":"SUP","parentId":"n65","id":"n67"},{"children":[{"label":"Rafale Shot Down by J-10","children":[],"text":"A Rafale was shot down by a J-10, despite expectations of Rafale dominance.","type":"EVI-O","parentId":"n68","id":"n69"},{"label":"F-15 Shot Downs","id":"n70","parentId":"n68","type":"EVI-O","text":"F-15s, considered unstoppable, have been shot down multiple times.","children":[{"label":"Kuwaiti Air Defense Shootdowns","id":"n71","parentId":"n70","text":"Only 3 F-15s were shot down by Kuwaiti air defenses in the current conflict.","type":"DAT-S","children":[]}]},{"children":[],"text":"The F-15 has not been defeated in aerial combat, with air defense shootdowns not counting negatively.","type":"JUST","id":"n72","parentId":"n68","label":"F-15 Aerial Combat Record"},{"label":"Rafale Shootdown Explanation","parentId":"n68","id":"n73","type":"JUST","text":"The Rafale shootdown was attributed to superior Pakistani AWACS usage and datalink efficiency.","children":[]}],"id":"n68","parentId":"n65","text":"Real combat can shatter an aircraft's abilities judged on paper, as demonstrated by other jets.","type":"OPP","label":"Real Combat vs Paper Performance"},{"label":"Unpredictability of Combat Performance","type":"INSG","text":"One never knows how well a jet will perform unless it has faced real combat.","parentId":"n65","id":"n74","children":[]},{"label":"F-22 vs Tejas Role Comparison","children":[{"label":"F-22 Role","type":"DAT-N","text":"The F-22 is the best fighter jet for air superiority missions.","parentId":"n75","id":"n76","children":[]}],"type":"NTRL","text":"The F-22 is a fifth-generation air superiority fighter, while Tejas is more comparable to F-4 or F-5 for the IAF.","parentId":"n65","id":"n75"}],"parentId":"n1","id":"n65","text":"There are differing opinions on how fighter jet performance should be judged, especially without real combat experience.","type":"SECT","label":"Performance Assessment Debates"},{"children":[],"text":"A humorous suggestion to order more 112 Rafales is made.","type":"DCSN","parentId":"n1","id":"n77","label":"Order More Rafales"}],"text":"The Indian LCA Tejas fighter jet's potential and success are debated due to extensive development delays and integration challenges.","type":"APEX","id":"n1","label":"LCA Tejas Potential and Challenges"},"sourceType":"url","sharedAt":{"_seconds":1780339180,"_nanoseconds":825000000},"title":"LCA Tejas Potential and Challenges"}